The Leadership Principles of Ulysses S. Grant - Stories & Myths (Episode 16)
Considered one of the three greatest American leaders by Teddy Roosevelt, U.S. Grant led the union to victory as a general and the nation to peace as president. Learn the timeless leadership principles that brought Grant success on this week's Stories & Myths with Craig von Buseck.
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Transcript:
meeting with Christian book
owners, bookstore owners, and
meeting with uh various
different kinds of folks uh to
talk about my different books
and hopefully to uh encourage
them uh stock their shelves
with those books and what books
are those that you'll be
promoting? The ones behind me.
Alright. Yes. So, so it should
should be an entertaining
interesting time. So, uh I'll
I'll probably do a couple of
research stops along the way.
Um I had stopped at Fort
Donelson a couple of years ago
after I had gone to the Ulysses
S Grant Presidential Library
and then I was heading up to
Pennsylvania to visit with my
parents and so I stopped at
Fort Donelson but I didn't have
enough time to get over to Fort
Henry uh which was the first
fort that grant uh defeated. it
actually wasn't grant. It was
his planning but it was the
navy that defeated Fort Henry
but then Grant and the Navy
working together defeated Fort
Donald and so I plan to stop at
Fort Henry because it's kind of
right on the way. Nice And then
uh also there may be a couple
other stops depending on how
much time I have. Uh Mark Twain
Birthplace is about an hour and
a half from where Yes. uh well,
not his birthplace but his
where he grew up. He was born
in Florida, Missouri which is a
little bit uh further west but
uh Hannibal is about an hour
and a half from where we're
going to be. So, if I find the
time I might zing up there as
well. So, It should be. It
should be an interesting time.
Awesome. Awesome that I plan to
hear or I look forward to
hearing some stories about it
next week and um at the office
and here on um on your podcast
stories and myths. That's
right. Yes. So, what do we got
on top for this evening? So,
we're actually going to be
talking about one of your grant
books. We're going to be
talking about the leadership
one. Um just got a couple of
questions about that and so um
this is the second It is called
the lord. The leadership
principles of Ulysses S Grant.
That's right, which is the
companion book to the biography
Victor, the final Battle of
Ulysses S Grant. So, and this
one came out in May of 2021,
right? And the biography Victor
came out in April. So, just a
month apart and so yeah. Um so,
I'll go ahead and jump right
into my first question. So,
Roosevelt declared in nineteen
mightiest among the mighty dead
loom. the three great figures
of Washington Lincoln, and
Grant. So, why did Grant's
reputation suffer such a
decline since that point? Well,
it's interesting II. Don't know
if there would be anyone today
who would say the same thing
now, everything shifts with
context and with time and uh
we've had an awful lot. You
know, we've had more than a
century since
Uh Teddy Roosevelt made that
quote and there have been a lot
of great American leaders since
that time but when you look
back from 1900 back to 1776 and
consider what Teddy Roosevelt
said, uh what I didn't share in
that quote was that he said in
the second tier there would be
people like Patrick or not not
Patrick Henry but Alexander
Hamilton, Tom Thomas Jefferson,
John Adams, Benjamin Franklin,
Franklin, those Teddy Roosevelt
considered those second tier
and he considered the first
tier Washington, Lincoln and
Grant basically people of that
era looked at Washington as the
father of the country and he,
you know, not only as a general
but also as a two-term
president and his important
contribution of not uh going
for a third term but retiring
and saying I'm not a king. we
don't want a king In America,
we want a president and so that
very important contribution,
Then, they looked at Lincoln in
his work in saving the union
and keeping it from being
divided and conquered and they
looked at grants in two
different ways. One was his uh
military strategy working with
Lincoln. I mean, Lincoln and
Grant had very similar strategy
but Lincoln Lincoln didn't have
the military training that
Grant had and so Lincoln needed
Grant. That's why three full
years went by where the union
lost. Most of the time, the
only place that the union was
winning was out west where
Grant was in charge because
Grant was a military genius as
far as his strategy was
concerned and as far as his
discipline was concerned and so
that's why Lincoln brought him
east so that the north's
strongest general went up
against the strongest general
in Robert E. Lee. So, it was
kind of like Rocky Balboa
against Apollo Creed and um and
Grant one and so he he not only
was hailed for winning the war
but he also uh helped the
country steer through the
dangerous waters of
reconstruction and of the rise
of Jim Crow racism in the south
uh basically, you know, the uh
the Southern aristocrats and
politicians who were in charge
before the war very quickly
became in charge again after
the war because they suppressed
uh the black vote and so it was
the same people voting for the
same people and they wanted to
continue slavery just in
different terms and that is you
know the uh Jim Crow racism and
grants fought against that for
all. 8 years of his two terms
as president and this is what
we forget. You know, I know
growing up that I was told that
Grant was one of the worst
presidents we ever had because
of the scandals that took
place. Well, that was nothing
but Southern Pro Southern
Confederate propaganda. It's
simply not true. The truth of
the matter is that Grant is one
of the most important
presidents we ever had because
he kept us together. He kept
the the country unified. He Jim
Crow. He knocked down the KKK.
He came out with the Civil
Rights Act of 1975. He came out
with the KKK laws and so he's,
you know, slogan was let us
have peace and he did that in
three ways. One, he tried to
reconcile wherever he could
with the south as long as they
obey the laws. federal, state,
and local two, he kept the
Union Army uh deployed
throughout the south to enforce
that and three, he he helped to
form the justice department and
his attorney general along with
Grant uh went after the KKK and
basically in the courts, they
wiped them out and so the KKK
was pretty much uh toothless
for the next 20 years because
of Ulysses S Grant, we forget
how important he was not only
as general but also as
president and then of course as
elder statesman in those last 2
years as he was writing his
memoirs, he not only wrote
about his experiences but he
reminded the country that the
war was not about state's
rights. The war was not about
tariffs. The only way they were
the war was about tariffs and
state's rights was as it was
connected to slavery. The war
was about slavery. Grant made
that very clear in his memoirs
and he made it very clear to
the people that he spoke to
including Chancellor, a Von
Bismarck. He said we had to
destroy slavery. It was a
cancer upon our country and so
that is why the people of the
nineteenth century next to
Lincoln and very closely next
to Lincoln. So, Ulysses S Grant
as one of the great leaders in
American history happily after
100 years of what is called the
law school which is a pro
confederate uh philosophy of
writers and historians and
media mogul after 100. years of
knocking grants reputation down
and raising Lee's reputation up
um after the civil rights
movement uh writers and
historians and educators
started to take a second look
at Grant and started to look at
the actual documents which is
what historians are supposed to
do and what journalists are
supposed to do and so in the
last Twenty-five or 30 years,
there has been a reexamine of
the importance of Ulysses S
Grant That's one of the reasons
why I wrote these two books.
Victor and Forward. Awesome.
So, Grant, look for the
advantage in every setback. So,
how was this a key to his
success? well II mentioned
earlier for uh Henry and Fort
Donaldson Grant. um saw the
strategy right away uh when he
was employed as a colonel in
the uh Union Army in Illinois
and he was placed under uh
General Freeman uh who was the
general of the west at the time
free mantle gave grant a
promotion to Brigadier General
and he basically said go get
him. Well, uh Freeman
unfortunately made some really
bad decisions and Lincoln
removed him and brought in
General Hallock Hallock was a
good politician but not a very
good Uh he was good at uh the
paper pushing part of being a
general. He was not good in the
field. He just wasn't good in
the field and yet Grant now had
to answer to Hallock and so
Grant saw very clearly that the
key to um to defeating the
south was to control the
rivers. It would be like us
controlling the highways and
airports today uh because
rivers could be, you know,
things and troops and supplies
and weapons could be moved in
rivers both in the summertime
and in the winter time. So,
it's vitally important and so
Grant saw that what he needed
to do first was to take the two
forts uh that were on the
Cumberland and the Tennessee
Rivers Fort Henry which was an
Earth and fort and it was not
very well built and then Fort
Donaldson which was a
combination of earth and also
Woodstock which was actually
well built and so he went to
Hallock to request permission
all the while Grant was making
plans for how he would do this.
In fact, he went and he talked
to the Admiral um of the navy
because back then there there
was no joint chiefs of staff.
The navy was in charge of the
navy and the army was in charge
of the army. So, the army
generals had to go and ask for
permission uh to use the boats
and so Grant went and spoke
with the commandant of the navy
in that area who agreed that
that was what needed to happen.
I believe it was uh admiral
Foot and um So, Grant went to
Hallock with this plan and
because it wasn't hall's plan,
he said, no, I don't want you
to do that even though it was
the obvious thing to do and so,
grants uh almost quit because
of this because he was so
discouraged by this politics
and yet he thought, okay, his
wife encouraged him and said,
no, you know, tough it out.
stay there. Something will
change. Well, what changed Is
that Abraham Lincoln was sick
and tired of the union just
sitting around doing nothing
and so he gave an order that by
this date, I want action. while
the only plan that Hale had was
grants and so he took it on as
his own and said, oh, I think
that is a very good idea Now
that Lincoln ordered him to
move forward and so he went
ahead and gave permission for
grant to go ahead and to
attack. So had Grant not made
his plans, had not been
proactive By the time Hallock
would have said, yes, there
would have been nothing in
place but Grant had not only
made his plans, he had started
stockpiling all the equipment
and the weapons and the
uniforms and everything that
was needed. The Navy got all
their plans together. So, as
soon as Hallock said, yes, they
were off. I think the next day
or maybe 2 days and um it had
been raining torrential and so
the Tennessee River had flooded
and so um the navy floated
right into Fort Henry. They
literally floated right into
the fort because it had flooded
and so it was the army never
even got there and so the navy
uh telegram uh or telegraphed
uh to general grant saying Fort
Henry has fallen Grant forward
to that that to Hale but he
never ask permission to move on
to Fort Donaldson. He just went
and did it because he thought
if I ask permission, he might
say no. So I'm just going to go
with uh interpreting his
original uh orders as taking
both forts, right? And so,
Grant, go out there and
surrounded three sides of the
fort, the other side was facing
the river and so the navy gun
boats went down to Tennessee
and then up the Cumberland and
started shelling Fort Donaldson
from from the but the
Confederates had built a very
good fort and the Confederates
actually took out the gun
votes. Uh they didn't sink but
they damaged them and killed a
lot of the navy. uh Navy
sailors So, the navy actually
uh retreated because their
boats were not capable of
keeping up the war and so Grant
said, okay, I guess we're just
going to have to take this and
so um he he gave the order to
charge on all fronts. It took
several days uh but eventually
uh they were able to overwhelm
the forts and um and they won.
So that's an example of how
grant um made his plans um his
strategy but then he stuck to
it and pushed forward. Awesome.
So, during the Civil War,
General Grant had a gift for
identifying talent and um
trustworthy people. So, how did
this help the union to win the
war? Well, the generals that we
know of as the great generals,
many, if not, most of them were
picked by Grant at one point
along the lines. Okay And those
that we don't really know about
or at least that your typical
person doesn't know about um
god on Grant's bad side which
could happen. There were some
generals who really uh made him
angry. Uh some that he fired uh
McLennan was an example. So
McLennan was a political
general. This was one of the
crazy things about the Civil
War is that they had most of
the generals and officers were
West Point excuse me, West
Point trained or one of the
other uh military colleges like
um the Citadel or or the uh
VIVI, right? But the majority
were from West Point. however,
because um the war was looked
on as a Republican war at the
beginning, Lincoln needed to uh
pull over to his side Democrats
who agreed with the war because
many Democrats did not and they
actually fought tooth and nail.
They were called Copperheads
because they would snip. uh the
face of liberty off of a copper
penny and of a fix it to their
shirt or their hat or their
lapel of their coat and so they
were named copperheads. There's
actually a movie named
Copperhead that kind of gives
that perspective. It's very
good. Ron Maxwell, the director
of Gettysburg and and Gods and
Generals also directed this
very very good movie but um so
Lincoln needed these Democrats
and so he turned I mean, right
now, it seems ridiculous but he
turned several of these
politicians into generals and
so, some of the more famous
were uh Fremont and II had
mentioned uh McLennan who was
actually uh Lincoln's friend in
Illinois and then probably the
most famous or infamous is
General Ben Butler uh who got
the name the beast Ben Butler
because he was put in charge of
New Orleans after New Orleans
was taken by the navy and uh
was a lot of you know, uprising
of the Southerners even though
the city had fallen the
citizens were doing things
like, you know, women would
come out and drop their chamber
pot onto the heads of generals
and things like that and uh
there's a lot of different
things but we're basically laid
down the law and said uh you
know, if this happens again,
the women are going to jail and
any men that pull anything like
that we're going to hang
without trial. Oh wow. And so
they called him the beast Ben
Butler and actually Still have
chamber pots uh from that era
where they they put the picture
of Ben Butler in the bottom of
the bowl. And then they still
exist. to this day. You can
get, I mean, it's a collector's
item. How would you like to be
like, oh, have you seen my
ancestors picture? Look at this
chamber pot, isn't it? Yeah.
photos in it. What did you make
of it? It's it's rather it's
hysterical but um at any rate,
uh so most of these political
generals were terrible
generals. Um they were good
politicians and that worked for
a time but most of them you
know, got pushed out. So,
McLennan made the mistake of
ranting against grant in the
newspaper which was against
army regulations and the next
day he was gone. As soon as
Grant saw that he fired him.
Ben Butler uh held on for a
long long time but finally he
uh did some things that were
out of bounds and Grant fired
him and so was just what's
that? a chamber pot Uh no but
uh he he made some some
mistakes uh and basically He
became very ineffective,
bottled up in uh what was
called the Bermuda hundred
which was just a small little
area south of Richmond and he
couldn't go north southeast or
west. They were stuck right
there. Grant said they were
like a wine bottle firmly
corked and so he got rid of of
Ben Butler but some of the
people that that grant raised
up uh included uh General
William to Sherman who grant
new at point and he had left
and people thought he was
crazy. Um at the beginning of
the war um because he said it's
going to take this long and
it's going to be this many
casualties. He was almost
exactly right on in the end.
His predictions were almost
right on but in at that time,
people said that he was crazy.
Well, Grant you know, they were
they came together and they
realized that they work very
well together and so what
Sherman said at one He said.
Grant was with me when I was
crazy and I stayed with Grant
when he was drunk and now we
stay with each other always and
they did and uh the two of them
were the two most important
generals really in the war.
Another person that Grant
identified and brought under
his wing was uh General Phil
Sheridan who is actually quite
young and he led the charge at
Chattanooga that took uh the
there. Uh and everybody thought
how in the world did that
happen? Well, a lot of people
believe that a large part of it
was was Sheridan leadership and
so Grant brought him out east
with him and put him in charge
of the cavalry which had not
been very successful up to that
point and within only a few
weeks uh Sheridan had whipped
it into shape and within only a
couple of months uh Jeb Stewart
who had led the the Southern
Calvary was killed at Yellow
Tavern and uh Southern Cavalry
was never as good as it was up
to that point and the Northern
Calvary kept getting better and
better and better and so again
and again and again. Uh another
one would be uh Grant's Chief
of Staff John Rollins who was
the lawyer for grandfather's
leather goods store but Grant
saw something in him and he he
named him chief of staff even
though he didn't have any
military ability but he did
have a great uh leadership
ability and organizational So,
again and again and again.
Grant identified these key
people and it's I attribute
that in the book by the way in
forward the leadership
principles of Ulysses S Grant.
what I do is not only talk
about grants leadership but
also I tie it to modern day
scholarship and so I show
different things that modern uh
researchers and educators and
scholars have discovered about
leadership and then I show how
many of these principles were
in play Grant's life before we
ever knew that they really made
a difference and so um one of
the things that I point out is
there's a book called Good to
Great by Jim Collins which is
an excellent book about
organizational leadership and
corporate uh leadership and
structure and basically what
Jim Collins and his team uh
recognized is that he talked
about the bus and you've
probably the term getting the
right people on the bus. Yeah.
But he takes it a step further.
He said, it's not just getting
the right people on the bus.
It's getting the right people
in the seats, in the right
seats on the bus and we've all
experienced that where there's
someone in the organization
that's there because they're a
cousin or they're somebody's
favorite. uh or whatever and
everybody scratches their head
and says this person is not in
the right seat and it's harming
the organization. You might
have most of the seats filled
properly but one key that is
not filled properly or two can
cause that bust to stall and
that was one of the things that
Grant did very very well as
Conversely, he did not do very
well in that regard as
president because as president,
he took his buddies, his
friends from the military, most
of them are associated with the
military and he just gave them
jobs and that came back to
haunt him. He didn't do the due
diligence that he did during
the army years and that is one
of reasons why there were all
these scandals. Now, Grant was
never involved in one of them
and that's what the historians
and the law school they they
kind of forget to tell us that
they say he was such a terrible
president because of these
scandals but they don't tell
you that he was never involved
in any of them. What his
problem was was that he allowed
them to go too long. He
couldn't believe that his
friends would do this kind of
thing because Grant was a of
tremendous character and
integrity and he thought that
everybody who he knew were the
same as him and it took him too
long to act to move these these
out who are corrupt and
unfortunately, it tainted his
presidency but it didn't taint
him Interesting. Interesting.
So, how is Grant's principal do
what is right? Even if it's not
popular? How is that still
relevant today? anywhere you
look anywhere you look. I mean,
you'd I'd like to hear you.
Give me an idea on that. Do
what is right. even if it's not
popular, What would be a
Modern-day example that you
could think of well II. go back
to an article I wrote about my
father and um do you remember
what or not my father, your
son, right? Yeah. You as a
father, right? As a father, um
I wrote an article a couple of
weeks ago called the faith of
the Son and it my oldest son is
a was an eighth grader. He's
now a ninth grader but um it
all, it's all about a
conversation I had with him on
the last day of eighth grade.
He's very, he has a very very
strong relationship with Christ
and he's he's not ashamed to
highlight it or to showcase
that in any way and so um and
he takes his prayer very
seriously and every every day
before lunch and in middle
school in the middle of the
middle school cafeteria, he
prays and um a conversation
that I don't III never got a
clear answer whether it
happened on the last day of
that his conversation with this
guy happened or a couple days
before but my conversation with
him happened the night of his
last day of school and
basically, one of his friends
asked him, why are you pray
every day before lunch? You a
lot of us think you're weird
and his his immediate reaction
was like, so and they're like,
but don't aren't you concerned
that people think you're weird
and his his response was
literally was if they have a
with me praying that's their
issue. Um it's it's what I do.
It's what I want to do. It's
there's nothing wrong with it
and I'm going to honor my
father by praying to him and um
even though he's not doing what
is popular, he's doing at what
is right as a Christian and so
and I and I took very I take
great pride in that and it's
something personally I had told
him out like as a father who
wants him to be as have as many
friends as possible and and be
liked by all I was trying to
come up with with suggestions
like, hey, why don't you walk
or why don't you say your
prayer like why you're in line
buying your food or why you're
walking down the hallway to the
to the cafeteria So you don't
have to do pray in the middle
of the in the middle of the
cafeteria among all these
eighth graders and seventh
graders and he's like, why?
Why? Why should I? Just because
they they're not comfortable
with it. Why should I change my
habits? and sacrifice my
relationship with God for that
reason and I was kind of, I was
kind of ashamed. I was like,
how why how could I as a father
who's who wants my son to have
a deep relationship with
Christ? How could, how could I
recommend that or have these
suggestions and so, the lesson
I learned was, hey, sometimes
the greatest lessons in faith
are from those who are those
you're raising that might just
be in your own household that
you don't even realize that and
as a father, I learned a very
valuable lesson and um as a
person who in in my own walk
with Christ, I was like, I wish
I wish I had done that as well
too. So, um and it it is
definitely goes back to what
what we're talking about. The
principle of do what's right.
Even if it's if it's not
popular, Absolutely. So, um
that's that's wonderful. Thank
you for sharing that story and
and I encourage people to go to
Inspiration.org and to read
John's story. What's the title?
It's called The Faith of a Son.
Okay, you just uh look that up
on Inspiration.org. Um thinking
about uh this question II go
back to the uh the declaration
of Independence that where it
was stated that all men are
created equal. Now, god made
man, male and female. he
created them. So, a female is
just as as much part of mankind
as a male and so when we talk
about equality, uh there is
equality among men and women.
Now, it took a while for this
country to come to an
understanding, right? Uh not
only
equality among the races or
among men and women but also
equality among the races and
today, I would add to that the
protection of human beings who
are in the womb Uh the there's
always a uh an argument that
the victim is not fully human.
So, uh a woman was a
second-class citizen to the men
Slaves were not fully human.
They were somewhere between a
beast and a human um and that
was basically uh you know, the
awful dread Scott decision by
the Supreme Court that said
that he was not a man in to the
Holocaust. For example, the
Nazis said that not only the
Jews were not human but they
were vermin. They use that term
like rats or uh cockroaches in
the same way that rats and
cockroaches need to be
exterminated. The Jews needed
to be exterminated and so
today, the argument in favor of
people having abortion is that
this is not a human being. It's
just a blob of tissue and so
people of character. uh people
who believe not only in the
Bible but people who believe
truly that all are created
equal. If we are all created
equal, when does creation
happen? Creation happens in
science now has shown this to
be true beyond any shadow of a
doubt that creation of a human
being happens at conception.
Everything is there for that to
become a human being. Uh doctor
Ben Carson said, if it's not a
human being, then, why are we
taking those human uh aborted
fetuses and using them for uh
doing research on human beings
if they're not human beings,
they are human beings and so
there's always this uh you
know, it's easier to do away
with someone that is not a
human being or is not uh is
some some less than human but
that's not the right thing and
that was what Grant came to
understand. He came to
understand that you know, his
father and his mother were both
abolitionists but his father
was so bombastic and and pushy
and Grant was such a gentle
kind of uh uh introvert that he
rebelled not necessarily
against abolition as much as
against his father. I think but
He was given a slave. He worked
that slave. So, he had this uh
cognitive dissonance that was
going on the struggle within
himself but he came to the
point where he started to
realize no slaves are men just
like you and I and so at his
lowest point when he was at his
worst financial position of his
life, he could have sold that
slave for a $1000 which in the
1850s would have been a lot of
money and it would have given
him probably a couple of years
of breathing room but He gave
freedom to that slave. He took
his family and moved up north
because he knew that the
conflict was inevitable and
that uh he told Otto Von
Bismarck later on that when
slavery fired upon Fort Sumter,
everyone who was loyal knew
that it was a cancer that could
not be negotiated with it had
to be destroyed. Okay. So, I
was wondering if you could
please give some examples of
grants, principles of his
principal, think creatively,
and then take calculated risks
Uh two of the most important
places. Um you know, really
where Grant shine and and it
wasn't just that he shined but
his strategy um helped win the
war and uh that was at
Vicksburg and then in the
Overland campaign So, Vicksburg
was this huge Citadel uh that
set up on top and it's still a
city today I visited there sits
up on top of this large bluff
and there's a big cliff that
goes down to the Mississippi
River and so uh confederates
were able to hold that city.
and so grant um knew that that
city needed to be taken so that
the union would then control
the entire Mississippi all the
way north to south and so he
tried all kinds of different
things. The problem was that to
the north of the city where all
these Bayou and swamps to the
uh west was the river which
protected in the bluff to the
east were all these
fortification that had been
built by the confederates and
there was a very large garrison
of soldiers under general
Pemberton who was a northern
who left the north to fight for
the south because his wife was
from the south. Well, that's
why we speculate. That's why he
fought for the south and then
to the south, it was wide open
but they didn't believe that
the northern troops could get
there because everything was so
difficult to get around and so
there Little garrison in the
south but not a lot and so
Grant knew that he needed to
get around to the South of
Vicksburg to attack but they
couldn't get there because of
the swamps because of uh they
were not proper bridges. There
were not proper roads. There
were uh entrench mes. there
were troops and so grant spent
from the fall of 62 all the way
to July 4th of 1863 Uh first
coming up with a plan and then
executing that plan and so at
first, um there were different
ideas that different generals
had. Some of them talked about
taking gun votes down these
very narrow rivers that had all
these trees over uh hanging and
so they tried to do that but
they kept hitting uh trees that
were under the water and then
they'd get stuck and the
confederates would shoot them
like you know, fish in a barrel
from the shore or One of the
other exciting things is the
the ship gun boats would be
going down the river and they
get stuck and all of a sudden,
snakes would start falling from
the trees onto the soldiers or
onto the sailors in the boats
and there were alligators that
were going up and down. I mean,
it was it's the swamp. It's you
know, tropical. Oh yeah. And so
Grant had troops that were
going and diving deep under the
water to saw these trees to get
them out of the way to try and
get them down at one point had
uh the troops trying to dig a
canal to red divert the
Mississippi River so that they
could get around Vicksburg and
that uh canal is still you can
go visit that canal. It's you
know, it's all somewhat filled
in now but you can still see,
you know, the U shape of the
cow and the historical signs
there. So they're trying to dig
something deep enough that the
water will just naturally go
in. this man made and they
could take the gun votes down
this new canal around the city
and come in from the north but
it never it never worked. It it
it was so muddy and the the
ground, you know, so swampy
that it just kept collapsing.
Now, today, obviously with our
modern earth movers, we could
do it but back then it was all
just soldiers with with
shuffles, You know, it's crazy
to even think what they were
trying to do. That's crazy but
finally he uh he met with uh
the admiral of the navy and
said what we need to do is just
run the gauntlet and go down
the river next to Vicksburg
with the gun votes so that we
can go around the dry side in
Louisiana and meet you down
there and so uh they did this
and they packed these gun boats
with cotton bales of cotton and
hay to try to keep them from
you know, causing too much
damage to the to the boats.
They did this twice and they
only lost two vessels. Um that
time and both of them. One was
a barge and the other one was
uh not not very important. vote
and but the key gun boats got
through and um so then what
grant did was they you know,
once spring came, the road
started to
goons and things like that in
there but Bruins is where they
crossed and it was one of the
first major American amphibious
assaults where they crossed a
mile long river. uh and they
were then on dry ground and
they attacked from the south
and then around uh to the wet
to the east took out all the
opposition then turn West laid
Siege and the Confederates uh
gave up on uh July 1863 in the
fourth of July was not
celebrated in Vicksburg for the
next 70 years or so. Oh, wow.
Did not realize that. Wow. So,
that's that's actually the last
question I have for you. Uh did
you have anything else to add
about this whole period of time
and grants? Well, um yeah, the
uh the other I had mentioned
that the other place where
grants strategy really um won
The war was when he came east
to go up against uh Robert E.
Lee. Now, there had been uh
five generals before Grant and
all of them had all of the
equipment, all of the personnel
and all of the support of
Abraham Lincoln that Grant had
but they all lost. the only
time that the union won in the
East was when Robert E. Lee
came out from behind his
trenches and moved into the So,
they they lost at Antietam and
then the Confederates did and
then they lost as we know at
Gettysburg and um uh both times
though um the Union Commanders
McClellan and at and and then
uh uh Mead at Gettysburg
allowed the Southerners to
retreat back into Virginia and
get back behind their breast
works and they were not to
defeat them. Had they both had
the spirit of grants after
Antietam and Gettysburg. The
war might have ended in 1862 or
1863 but because they didn't
have that you know, pounding uh
that grant had um they let him
get away The grant was not
going to do that. So, when
Grant uh led the army to attack
in the wilderness, it was a
terrible awful two-day battle.
um that made worse because they
were fighting in a very thick
forest and the forest caught on
fire and so troops that had
been wounded many of them
scores of them could not get
away from the smoke or from the
flames and many of them died
horrifically and there are
accounts of uh soldiers crying
out to their comrades. come and
get me the flames almost here
and in one case, there's an
account where two of his
friends came out from behind
the breast work to save him and
they were shot down and killed.
and so the flames were almost
there to this wounded soldier
and the officer shot and killed
his own soldier to put him out
of his misery so that he didn't
burn up in the flames and you
know, die in such terrible
pain. Sadly, many many soldiers
did not have such an
opportunity and they died a
horrific death and um So, the
wilderness battle which was a
two-day battle in May of 1864
was uh actually a southern
victory when in terms of the
number of killed and wounded
but um up to this point, the
northern commanders would
retreat back across the Ramadan
or the Rappahannock Rivers and
they would spend the next 2
months or 3 months retool
getting supplies bringing in
new troops, getting the old
troops who have been wounded uh
to hospitals and healed up and
back into the ranks and Grant
said to me uh after the second
day of fighting, he said,
tonight we're moving out after
dark and we're moving south to
Spotsylvania which was south
and west towards Richmond not
retreating. Well, nobody knew
that except me and a few of the
officers and so that night as
the as the soldiers were
getting back into ranks to set
off, they didn't know which way
they were going and so they
came to uh and if they turn to
the left, it would be a retreat
back towards Washington. If
they turn to the right, they'd
be heading towards Richmond and
so they all kind of watched.
where's Grant going to take us?
Where are we going? And when
Grant came up, he passed the
troops and got to that tee on
that important Brock Road. He
turned right and as soon as he
did that, the troops started to
yell and shout. they threw
their hats in their air, their
nap caps in their air, in the
air, They set branches on fire
and started waving them and
creating bonfires and it was so
loud that Grant's Horse and
Me's horse started to buck and
Winnie and they lost control of
their horses which they were
very good horsemen and uh Grant
said this is not good. The
Southerners are going to hear
us and give us a way. Well, the
Southerners, the Confederates
did hear them and they started
firing cannon in the direction
of the sound because they
thought that they being
attacked. Well, they were so
far away that the cannon balls
just landed harmless in the
woods but the union soldiers
were thrilled and they all
started chanting on Richmond on
Richmond. Well, that was such
an important moment and turning
point in the war that the
statue that is in front of the
Capitol building in Washington
DC is that moment. Oh, really
Grant on his horse at the
moment of turning right. So,
next time you go to Washington
DC go down. it's between the
Capitol Building and the
reflect Okay. And there's a
wonderful statue of Grant and
his soldiers and that's the
moment as he turned right to
move towards Richmond during
Spotsylvania which was another
uh it's almost beyond belief
when you read the descriptions.
Uh it rained a lot during the
battle but they just kept
fighting and the and the the
ground turn to soup and so
there were places after the
battle that they found soldiers
buried dead seven on top of
each other. Each one pressed
down into the mud. Another one
would fall. put down into the
mud. then another would fall.
push down into the mud. They
found seven stacked on top of
each other under the mud. Wow.
Um that's how Spotsylvania was.
Yeah. And especially at a place
called the Mule Shoe or the
bloody angle and this is called
a salient and it's a place
where because of the geography,
you have to have your line
instead of it being straight.
it goes into this angle and it
allows the enemy to attack
because it's a weak point and
so that's where Grant attacked
and uh it was a horrific mess
on both sides and so towards
the end of that battle, uh
grants was getting ready to
make his plans for his next
move and his friend, the
congressman who helped him kind
of move up the ladder. uh was
there with him and he said, I'm
going back to see President
Lincoln tomorrow. Do you have a
message for him? and Grant
said, well, the the proper
thing would be for me to write
to General Hallock. So, could
you take a note to General
Hallock and he'll share it with
with President Lincoln Grant
was always that way He did it
by the book and uh much as
possible. you know, in war,
sometimes you have to be
spontaneous too but for the
most part, he did it by the
book and so in that note, he
made the famous phrase um there
shall be no backward steps. I
plan to fight it out on this
line. If it takes all summer.
Well, it took all summer all
fall all winter and then into
the spring and Appomattox
didn't happen until April. So,
this June of 1864 and they
didn't surrender Robert E. Lee
didn't surrender until April of
1865 but it was this pounding
pounding, pounding, not giving
up even when they were losing a
lot of men. Grant knew that he
could replace his soldiers but
every person that we lost, he
couldn't replace, Right? And so
that's where we get the term uh
fighting until the last ditch
or a last ditch. effort, effort
because when you've gotten rid
of all your man, all you have
left is whoever's in that last
ditch fighting to the last man.
Uh they also came up with the
term at that point or at least
it became popular. uh robbing
from the cradle and the grave.
Now we use that in dating terms
today but back then they used
it um to talk about the
soldiers that the Confederates
were bringing in after the on
Petersburg when Petersburg and
Richmond fell, they went in and
they found boys thirteen and
fourteen dead in the trenches.
next to old men in their mid
60s because they just didn't
have any more. I mean, they
lost the confederacy lost an
entire generation of men uh
which is a terrible tragedy but
that was what they were willing
to do to continue slavery uh
quote unquote their peculiar
institution and way of life and
um it's a terrible tragedy but
grant understood that he had to
fight every day and keep
pressing forward. He understood
that he had to keep the armies
separated and so he had to keep
the western army uh surrounded
and separated by Sherman down
in Georgia while Grant uh kept
Lee and the Army of Northern
Virginia in and around Richmond
and then Fran Siegel at first
was up in the Shenandoah
Valley. He was not very
effective. So then eventually,
grants uh uh General Phil
Sheridan and so they not only
kept them separated but then
they defeated them in the uh in
the Shenandoah Valley and the
same thing out west with
General Banks uh in Texas and
Arkansas. They had to keep
everybody separated and so it
was divide and conquer. So,
these were parts of his
strategy uh and there's many
more and II mentioned these all
these different strategies in
the book forward. Um the
leadership principles of
Ulysses S Grant. Go pick it up.
Any final questions? I've,
you've answered all my
questions. It's very
interesting. Alright. Well,
very good. Well, once again, we
want to thank you for being
with us this week on Stories
and Myths and remember, if you
have a question, please feel
free to ask it during the
program or if you're watching
this in the archives
afterwards, feel free to send
an Email. Uh to me. Just go to
Vons.com which is my last name.
You see it down
BONUS. Follow the bouncing
finger VON USECK dot com and
click on the contact button and
send your message. We'd we'd
love to hear your feedback.
We'd love to see your questions
and uh do some research uh to
find out what the answers are
and tell the stories. stories
that inform stories that
entertain stories that may
infuriate stories it may
enlighten and even stories that
may inspire but also to debunk
the myths. That's why we're
here and so we're so glad that
you're here as well. Uh
remember, you can get your copy
of Forward at Grant Forward
book Uh.com, your copy of
Victor Victor Book.com and all
of my books are available on
Von.com on Amazon.com or
wherever books are sold and
John C Farrell, where is your
book available? What is the
name of your book? My book
called the official Nascar
trivia book. I thought with a
yeah, that's what it's called.
I was trying to give it more
title um and it's available on
Amazon. It's on Amazon. It was
published in 2012. So, um it is
no longer actually in print um
but it it used to be at the
bookstores but now it is
available on Amazon.com.
Alright. Well, I hope to see my
friends If watching and you're
going to the Christian Product
Expo in Saint Louis, uh next
week, I look forward to seeing
you there and we'll come back
with stories about our journey.
I hope to stop at a couple of
places and and maybe get some
video. Uh that's one of the
things we're going to start
doing is adding some video. So,
uh one of the things I only
live a mile away from a major
revolutionary war battle and so
in the next couple of weeks,
I'm going to go shoot some
video at that site and we'll
share it here on stories and
myths. So, for John C lost my
internet connection Pharaoh,
I'm Craig Von Booze. We'll see
you here again next week,
Thursday, 7 PM Eastern US. Time
for stories and myths. Same bat
channel, same bat. Wait, no,
same bad time. Same bat
channel.
