Who is the Angel of Gettysburg? This and More on Stories & Myths.
Who was the 'Angel of Gettysburg?' Why did Union soldiers give their lives to save High Bridge near Appomattox? All this and more on this week's Stories & Myths with Dr. Craig von Buseck and his special guest, Aaron von Buseck.
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Stories & Myths Transcript: June 24, 2021
and good evening good morning good
afternoon wherever you are tuning in
around the world
we are so glad for you to join us
tonight
on stories and myths and you might
notice
in the lower part of the screen uh
that the last names of both people
are the same this week and even though
he looks a little bit like
john c farrell this is not john c
farrell this is my son aaron
c von busick and we want to welcome
aaron to the program tonight so glad
that you could be with us
thank you yeah this is awesome i'm
really excited to be a part of this
this is uh well i am excited to have you
as well
and uh for those who are tuning in
um aaron has just uh made some history
himself
in the last couple of weeks and uh
you're coming up on the two-week
anniversary am i right
yep me and my wife we tied the knot
literally
we did the not tying ceremony in our
wedding and
yeah it's been it's been amazing so it's
certainly a new
season so it's been really awesome so
that is exciting and uh
we uh we did this uh and
very wisely uh aaron and his
wife julie are both
graduates of the regents school of
communication
where they studied tv and film and video
and so this wedding was prepared
uh as you know from through the eyes of
filmmakers
and so because of that uh
they wanted us there uh for golden hour
at sunrise and we were right on the
shores of
lake erie and the sun rose behind us
as uh well i say behind us
i mean um because i co-officiated
the ceremony with julie's father who's
also an ordained
minister so what gave you guys the idea
to uh to do this cinematic
type of wedding
yeah it certainly is cinematic um yeah
we just you know we both
we you know we've worked on plenty of
film projects in the past and
you know there's just something about
early morning light that is just
incredible and lake erie
uh they have a bang that it's like the
third most beautiful sunrise
you know they don't set the standards
too high but it's but it's certainly
amazing
and so we just knew that it would look
gorgeous and
you know from a
you know from an emotional standpoint in
our connection we wanted to look at this
as a new season
and so we wanted to start it at the
beginning of the day so we wanted it to
symbolize as much of a new beginning
for the two of us as possible which you
know was
kind of always the idea so there's an
element like that there to it but it was
also
simply because we knew that the photos
and videos would look pristine and
and so far yeah everything that we've
seen from our amazing photographer uh
daryl morgan i'll give him a little plug
has been amazing um so we're we're
really thrilled
and really excited to see the rest of it
so
uh i am as well as you said the uh
photos that i've seen in the one little
clip of video that i've seen
have been amazing and i can't wait to
see
more so that is very exciting
yeah so uh one of i was going to say my
uh that was there she was saying that it
was amazing because as soon as
julie got down the aisle the clouds
parted and the sun shone through it was
really
kind of spectacular the way that it all
came together so
yeah it it really was it was uh
for me uh it was almost like a dream
moment or a movie moment uh living it
felt like it was we were in a movie
yeah right i was waiting for someone to
shout cut
yeah well hopefully no one will ever do
that so let me just let the movement
absolutely keep playing yeah
that's awesome well uh we said earlier
that you and julie
attended the regent film school uh tell
us
what the two of you are are doing now in
the film and video
and television industry
so uh currently julie is working
um as a producer uh for cbn
um specifically with the uh
show gizmo go and uh the soup and
also on the side uh super book show
where she does a lot of editing but also
you know a lot of producing and so
that's kind of been
where she's been going but she's also
excellent uh behind camera like as an
operator
and so uh we've been able to work
together actually on a couple projects
which is really cool
you know you know a lot of people you
know don't necessarily get the
opportunity to go to work with their
wife you know
it's really cool to be able to be on set
and to collaborate
because you know film is such an
artistic medium you know and so there
have been a couple opportunities that
we've had where it was really great
getting to work together um and getting
to see her shine in that way because
you know i've only ever seen the product
i've never gotten to see
up until recently gotten to see operate
that one
as for me i just got done working on um
a show up in richmond
uh called swagger uh it's
produced through apple tv and it looks
like it's gonna be amazing i'm really
excited to see it
uh the you know it's a show about um
basketball and youth programs and and
and
the struggles that you know young people
go through
trying to carve their way you know
especially in something as
huge as a sport you know that and you
know national sport like basketball you
know
the competition is so high and so it
makes for a lot of good drama
so uh i'm excited to see that i was a
part of that on their lighting team
um started as a set lighting technician
and then moved to the rigging electric
team
and uh it was very rewarding being a
part of such a large production
uh and now now i just got to work on the
pilot for
a uh a tv series that they're trying to
make
for uh history it's called hidden
history and the episode that we made for
the pilot
uh was about the train that was buried
in richmond uh when they the tunnel
collapsed
and it you know buried like four or five
um
people that are confirmed and then they
think that there might have been
you know up to a dozen or so you know
workers
that were buried as well and so it's
this kind of almost titanic like
story but he hit it you know hidden in
richmond's
ground you know it's kind of incredible
yeah i have never heard this story
before you
worked on this project yeah i mean
either it was really kind of incredible
but uh when i was talking to the
um the producer and uh the
cinematographer ryan pace uh we were he
was telling me the story
about how they've been trying to make
this show
for like 10 years and just now i've
gotten
uh the green light to go make this hook
and then they're working on the second
one which will be happening soon and so
i'm
waiting to hear about that that one too
so it's gonna be cool i love these
stories of you know not well-known
stories
you know from our history but they have
really great lessons i mean
lessons of hubris you know you can be
overstated
you know so well that's what the stories
of this program
is all about to tell those kind of
stories that are amazing interesting
thought-provoking informative sometimes
they make you furious
but then on the myth side you know
the program is meant to also debunk
some of the myths that are out there as
well because
not all history is completely
what happened so there are some things
that we call history
that we find out later as uh further
documentation is discovered
were not exactly what we thought that
that it was
so i'm so glad to have you on the
program uh tonight aaron
yeah no i it's awesome i'm excited to
hear
more about these things i saw your uh
your post on uh the angel of gettysburg
and i was immediately like
well that sounds like a movie
oh my gosh what a title it it really is
so just before we go into the questions
and do you have those questions ready
yeah yeah i have some questions here
that uh okay you know got me thinking
here
before we go into those questions we
want to um announce that
um aaron and i are actually
working on developing one of my books
into a video project the details of
which
will be announced uh in further
upcoming episodes once we get further
down the road
but we are taking the things that i have
been working on
and combining with aaron's video skills
and both of our writing skills because
aaron is also
a talented writer and uh we are
developing a very interesting project
uh so we will announce more about that
as
time goes by yeah i certainly think so
already
like my mind has been blown so many
times i'm like how has this
how are we the first ones to be talking
about this
coming to being a project like this is
that type of thing where you know
in my mind it's in the ranks of you know
the stories that we hear of like you
know george washington crossing
you know and like all that stuff like
all these huge historical stories
that make american history so rich
and i'm very excited to bring more light
to it
so yeah me too and it's also exciting to
be working together
as father and son but in this capacity
as partners
yeah no it's it's amazing it's funny you
know um
growing up in a you know you definitely
didn't hide history from us
so uh i guess it was inevitable that we
would eventually work together when
you shared so much and you you know talk
so much of you know the lessons that can
be learned and
you know and to value what we've gone
through and to learn from our mistakes
but to also
honor you know the good that has been
done
and you know the times that humanity's
goodness has shown through you know
especially in a world that can be so
dark and you know unpleasant
so absolutely well one of those stories
of light
uh is the angel of gettysburg that you
talked about
earlier so what's your question about
the angel of gettysburg
well number one that monument the photo
of the monument
is stunning oh my goodness it's the
artistry behind that alone
was enough to keep my interest much less
you know i know that there's an
incredible story behind it
but i wanted to hear like you know what
is that story and
you know is there some you know other
significance to the monument
itself absolutely well
elizabeth thorne is the woman that is
now known as the angel of gettysburg
she was the mother of three children and
she and her husband
had been hired in 1855
they were immigrants from germany and so
they were hired to be the caretakers of
the new
evergreen cemetery in gettysburg it was
newly established and laid out and they
had just
built uh the archway
entrance and if you've ever been to
gettysburg or you've ever seen the
cemetery
you see that that archway entrance has
on the two sides
uh they were basically two apartments
so there was an apartment on uh one side
where elizabeth and her husband lived
with their three
boys and then on the other side of the
archway was another apartment
that was housed that housed elizabeth's
parents her elderly parents now in 1862
i'm sorry 18 yeah 1862
i believe it was that her husband
um felt that
he needed to join the union army
and so he joined the army
and he went off uh to fight and was
actually fighting
ironically was actually stationed in
virginia
when general robert e lee and the
army of northern virginia invaded
pennsylvania
and eventually invaded gettysburg
so she was elizabeth was alone
uh caring for the cemetery she and her
father
had an average of about five burials
per month until the battle of gettysburg
and you can imagine uh what happened
because
their home was literally on ground
zero it was the central
point for the union army their home
that that uh wow was called cemetery
hill
and uh it was the high ground apartment
what's that yeah i was gonna say i
couldn't i could imagine the high ground
would have been
like tactically you know advantageous
for them to
hold yeah and as i pointed out with uh
my co-host john last week
general reynolds had been
overseeing the pennsylvania militia
earlier in the war
and he was actually from lancaster which
is not far from gettysburg
and so he had studied all of the ground
in and around gettysburg he knew it very
well
and so when lee started to approach
reynolds
had a very strong suspicion that lee
would want to consolidate his army
in gettysburg because gettysburg is like
the hub of a wheel with spokes going off
in every direction
and all of those roads converged on
gettysburg
which is one of the main reasons why the
battle
was not fought in harrisburg it was not
fought in carlisle
it was not fought in pipe creek where
general mead wanted to fight it was
fought in gettysburg
because that was the place where lee
could say
to all his different army corps come
together
let's come together in this place and uh
and reynolds had a suspicion that that's
what would happen and that's exactly
what happened
and so reynolds had been studying the
ground and he met
with one of the other core commanders
general
otis howard the night before the first
day of the battle
and they unrolled some maps and they
looked at it and they agreed
that they needed to hold cemetery hill
which is exactly where
elizabeth thorne's house was
and so um she
they um when they moved into gettysburg
after general buford who was in charge
of the cavalry
sent word back to general reynolds
saying lee and his course
they're gathering here move in we need
your help
and so on july 1st reynolds
and howard moved in in the morning
howard stopped and left one of his
divisions
on top of little or on top of uh
cemetery
hill and he went up to the door and
knocked on the door
of elizabeth thorne and said um just to
let you know
when i tell you to leave don't ask
questions
leave but for now go down into your
basement
and i'll tell you when it's time to go
and so
um the first day of battle was a an
overwhelming confederate victory
and so the union army
got pushed all the way back to cemetery
hill
and then there was a little bit of a
saddle between
and then next to it was culps hill and
that is where the union army was
at the evening of the first battle well
they were sitting in the yard
of elizabeth thorne and so elizabeth and
her parents were down in the basement
with the three boys
and early the next morning when the
battle erupted
general howard sent an assistant to go
tell
elizabeth thorne to get out of there and
so the
the family left and they moved uh far
south beyond a little round top uh where
several people in town had gathered
waiting out the battle
well uh the battle was absolutely
hellacious on uh both uh
cemetery hill and culps hill it was
hellacious all the way down cemetery
ridge and out into the peachfield the
wheat field
devil's den and especially strong and
difficult on little round top uh which
we talked about a little bit last week
with uh
general strong vincent and um
so the third day of battle actually
uh the tables turned the second day was
about a draw between the union and the
confederates
a little bit of a union victory in that
they held their
high ground the third day was pick
pickett's charge which was a total
annihilation the uh
union wiped out the confederates
and that is why the union won the battle
of gettysburg
so it was first day uh a confederate
victory second day almost a draw with a
little bit of a victory for the
union third day was a union victory and
so the union
won the overall battle of gettysburg and
lee had to withdraw on ironically
the reigning day of uh july 4th under
the cover of the rain
and the clouds uh general lee uh
and the army of northern virginia
withdrew
as the army of the potomac and general
mead
were licking their wounds because there
was tremendous
you know there were 50 more than 50 000
casualties
that doesn't mean 50 000 deaths that
means wounded
missing or dead sure probably around 11
or 12
000 dead between the two sides
now you think of 911 there were 3 000
dead on 911.
at gettysburg there were 10 000 dead
you can't even imagine it so elizabeth
horn
who by the way was six months pregnant
that's the other thing i forgot to
mention
and she arrived uh back i think on the
fourth
uh and there were um
dead bodies everywhere and there were
dead horses
everywhere and there weren't just the
dead bodies that were killed
on cemetery hill but people from town
were bringing dead bodies in and
stacking them
uh because they needed to be buried they
had been killed
in town and so um
the town tried to get people to
volunteer
uh to help and even offered to pay some
people to help
elizabeth and her elderly father to bury
these they ended up uh bearing i think
105
bodies now remember this was the
sweltering heat of july
and there were all those dead horses
and can you imagine the smell of all
these dead people
all these dead horses um yeah
six months pregnant woman out there
in the sweltering heat with her elderly
father
and eventually the town's people uh got
overwhelmed and they left
and then the father got overwhelmed he
was too tired
by the smell he left overwhelmed by the
smell and the heat
and just exhaustion and so elizabeth
thorne
by herself dug 75
graves and buried 75 people
by herself and so
um sadly the she the
you know the toll took or the toil
took a toll on the baby and the baby was
born
but was never healthy and died at a very
young age
which is very sad um but
elizabeth finished the job buried all
the people that she needed to bury
and her husband continued in the war
till the end of the war
and uh came home and um
they ended up uh continuing at the
cemetery for a few years and then they
went on to
other things but the great irony is that
elizabeth and her husband
are still buried uh or were buried then
in evergreen cemetery and so their
graves are there
in the cemetery and then about uh 12
years ago or so
um a group got together to honor
what elizabeth thorne did and they
created this statue
of her which actually uh was
representing her but it was also
representing
all of the women who served in the civil
war
and um so it is the women's memorial
for the civil war but the person that is
represented
is elizabeth thorne the angel of
gettysburg
right
wow oh my goodness
so this i had two questions while uh
that kind of came to my mind so you're
saying that
it was because of pickett's charge did
he just they just lost too much man
too many men that when the rest of the
battle kind of came about they
the confederacy was just too undermanned
and that and they weren't able to
stand it yes
it was as devastating uh to the
confederate army
the pickett's charge was on july
3 as the
assault on marie's heights in
fredericksburg
was to the union army if you remember
the union army got blown away
trying to move up the heights to uh
on it was called marie's heights on the
outskirts of fredericksburg
and that was in um late
1863 under general burnside
and um it was a complete disaster for
the union
who had to retreat back across the
rapidan
um and lick their wounds and so
the same thing happened at pickett's
charge only
at pickett's charge the union was behind
a stone fence a much
shorter stone fence but there was a
stone fence there
and lee sent his uh
you know pickets division along with a
couple
other divisions that were borrowed from
the other
uh core of the army um and so
they attacked across a mile wide
uh sloping incline and
uh you know it was a field day for the
union artillery
who just started sending shots out and
they would send these shells out and
they would blow up
over the troops and they'd just drop
like machine gun
bullets onto this huge mass of troops
then as they got closer they would use
what were called
grape shot or canister shot
which was basically these balls that
looked like
pinballs from the old pinball games
in a can that's why they called it
canister and they would shoot them out
and it was like
shooting a shotgun out of a cannon
and it would just mow them down oh my
god then when
the confederates got close enough the
union infantry
stood up took aim and blasted them
with their guns which were rifled
uh guns that were much more accurate
than any guns up to that point in
history and so it was a
it was so devastating that uh lee
uh decided the next day that they were
too wounded
plus the other side of it was that they
were running low on ammunition
and they were so far from their supplies
that
they didn't feel like they could uh you
know lee didn't feel like he could do
another
uh battle and so they turned and escaped
back over the potomac into the safety of
virginia
and you'll remember this because every
time we would drive home to erie we'd go
past
fredericksburg and i would i would pump
my fist in the air and say
fredericksburg
fredericksburg fredericksburg well that
was what the union said
at the end of pickett's charge as if to
say we got you back
now you get what we got at
fredericksburg right
this is our revenge right oh my gosh
right well the in the film business
you know we have a little saying or a
little like
term called foreshadowing and the
the confederacy running you know a
fourth of july
the irony is not lost on me you know
when you kind of like consider the the
meaning and you know
the kind of picture that that paints you
know on on
is well and the further the further
historical irony
is that on the very same day out in
vicksburg mississippi
the confederates surrendered vicksburg
to ulysses s grant
so the same day that lee was
retreating after the defeat in
gettysburg
uh they were also suffering a defeat in
vicksburg and both things happened on
the 4th of july
1863 right wow
wow man that just gets my mind going
with ideas of like tying these
things together it really is like
incredibly providential looking at these
things and how you know so much had to
come into place
together to a just stop the bloodshed
before
you know it could go on for years more
than what it already did but also just
to maintain the union and to you know
keep
the the country together you know like a
lot yeah
and despite these two losses the
confederacy went on for another year and
a half
so i mean the war was far from over even
though
these were two defeats for the
confederacy at that time
so they um they continued to fight
valiantly uh but as grant said they
fought for a cause that was one of the
worst
that people ever fought for and i echo
grant sediments in that yeah
it's awful wow um
so actually we had um we had talked
about the high bridge
this is a little bit of a topic change
but um
i wanted to hear some more about that
because i was blown away by like how
pivotal this sounds
sounded like in the little bit that we
got to talk about i'd love to hear more
um about this because it sounded like it
was dramatic like
you know like you know you think of
those
uh old hollywood films of like the last
stand and stuff like that and like it
sounds like that kind of story
yeah um i had not heard this story
before
and i was doing some uh reading probably
about five years ago
and i stumbled across this and i i don't
remember the source i wish i did
because i remember thinking oh my gosh
i've never heard this but it
it really could have changed the course
of the end of the civil war and what had
happened is that
after the fall of petersburg and
richmond
lee got a one-day jump on
fleeing to the west now you need to
remember
that his army was really depleted
they were running low on food
they had a lot of disease and so
it was a much weaker army than it had
ever been but they still were following
their commander
and so they started moving west along
the railroads coming
out of richmond and petersburg with the
goal
of making it to lynchburg
and getting refitted finding food and
supplies
and then they were going to turn and go
down south
into north carolina where they would
join with general joe
johnston and the remainder of the army
of the west well
if they did that then they would have a
a
army that could go against
general sherman's western army or
general grant's army
of the potomac and army of the james
it was a long shot but with general lee
in command
and with uh very committed soldiers
it was within the realm of possibility
and so
grants they could not go for their their
problems
but there was a hope there so grant knew
that he needed to get around and
surround them
and so what he did was he sent uh
under general sheridan phil sheridan was
the head of the
cavalry and grant told him
stay to the south of the army of
northern virginia and don't let them
turn south
we cannot allow them to link up with joe
johnston
then uh grant sent general ord
and his army of the james uh which was
infantry and said follow and stay as
close to the cavalry as you can
so that you also provide a block
to keep lee from turning south and then
he said to meade
general meade who was the head of the
army of the potomac
you follow on the tail of lee
and his army uh and remember they were a
day
behind so they had to catch up and so
um you know this was back when it was
horses
and and trains when they could run a
train but
normally it was horses and infantry on
foot
so the most of these soldiers were
marching
but most of lee's soldiers were marching
or on horseback as well
and so it was a race a literal race
to try to catch and then surround the
army
of northern virginia well they
started to catch up what happened is the
second day after
the southerners fled to the west they
were supposed to get food
and other supplies at a place called
amelia courthouse
and when they got there they were
starving and they were so excited to see
these train cars
that were supposed to be loaded with
supplies they opened up the train cars
and there were guns
and ammunition and cannon and all kinds
of
you know cannonballs and all that and
artillery
shells and no food
and these people were starving and so
lee had to say to them go out into the
fields and and farm houses and scout
scour and see a scavenge
and see what you can find and so
basically that day that they had
advanced of grant they lost
because they had to go find food and
they came back with like
parched corn and not much else you know
radishes and
you know carrots maybe uh but nothing
of substance because the countryside had
been picked over because of the war
and so they there hasn't been a wildlife
uh they might have found a little bit
but again
when you have an army trying to live off
of the land for
four years um that wildlife is either
going to be killed or it's going to be
scared off and so there wasn't a lot
and so um lee gathered his forces back
together and started marching again well
that allowed the army of the potomac
to catch up and they started getting
towards the end
and started taking shots at the tail end
of the army of northern virginia well
at this point they're exhausted and now
they're starving and you know if you
ever watch the tv show survivor
when people start to get to that point
they're not thinking right
they're sluggish uh they're kind of
dazed and
uh they you know they get weak and that
was what was happening to the army of
northern virginia at the same time the
army of the potomac the army of the
james
the cavalry they're eating like kings
they're eating steak
and uh you know i mean they're just
having everything that they could
ask for so they're very strong while the
army of northern virginia is getting
weaker and weaker
and so the
real tragedy for the confederacy
happened
at a place called sailors creek where
one third of the army got cut off from
the
forward two-thirds and they
uh the army of the potomac finally
caught up
and they went into battle and they were
able to surround
this one-third of the army of the
of northern virginia and they defeated
them
soundly they took in five major generals
as
as prisoners they took in hundreds and
hundreds
of soldiers as prisoners and several
a hundred were killed or wounded
uh in the battle well lee was up on a
hillside
uh overseeing this and he turned to a
needy an aide and he said
my god has the army evaporated
because he didn't know how many soldiers
were left but he could see
all these hundreds of soldiers
surrendering
right in front of his eyes and he
thought that the army was gone
uh but he he turned and started moving
um forward and he found out that
two-thirds of the army was still there
much smaller but still enough of an army
to fight
and now they were approaching a place
where the appomattox river
took a turn at what a place called
farmville and there were two bridges
that went across
the appomattox there and um one was
called the high bridge
and it was a union trestle and at the
time
it was considered an engineering marvel
and the southern railroad went across
this
i think it was 150 feet in the air and
the amazing thing is
i've been there and those original
pilings
the you know uh the they were made out
of
stone those are still there now the
bridge is long gone and they built an
iron bridge
next to it but those original stone
pilings
that the original wooden bridge was on
are still there which is really
amazing to see this thing from back
during the civil war
then there was a second bridge that was
very low
and it was called a cart bridge and it
was basically for
carts and for foot traffic to go across
and it was
it was so low you could reach over and
fill your canteen
with water uh from the river below
and so we was meeting with longstreet
and they saw this
and they said this is an opportunity if
we could get across there and burn the
bridges
then the army of the potomac is going to
go
have to go way around and that's going
to give us time to get to
to lynchburg and we'll you know we'll be
able to get food and refit
and this could be what we have been
looking for
and so oh my gosh that would have just
made everything last
that could have given them distance to
go on for
what months or maybe years
wow maybe years if they would have
gathered with joseph johnston
and they weren't tied down to cities
they could just go from one strategic
place to another
and fight on ground of their choosing
and whenever they did that the the uh
army of northern virginia quite often
won those battles
because they knew how to entrench you
got to remember that
lee was one of the top generals
in the core of army engineers uh you and
i
have many times gone to fort monroe
there in
uh you know hampton virginia that was
built by
robert e lee and you've you and i have
stood up on the side of that fork
that thing is it's it's truly a fork
it is not something that you could get
you know through
easily at all it was amazingly built so
lee knew how to build things
and he knew how to do entrenchments and
that is why
at places like cold harbor and
um petersburg
uh the the army of the potomac had
a terrible time because they would go up
against these entrenchments and just get
mowed down
because they were so well built and even
though they were firing into the
entrenchments
the southerners were were kept safe
because these uh were so well built
that the the shells and the bullets
couldn't get through
whereas they would have these openings
where they could see through and shoot
the north or the uh you know the
northern troops
who had no defenses and that's why cold
harbor was another
uh pickett's charge or fredericksburg
because
now it was the opposite and the union
got mowed down
yeah so at any rate um
so lee sent uh
one of his um uh cavalry
uh groups along with a couple of uh
core or divisions of infantry to go
and burn that bridge and uh to make sure
that the union didn't get there first
well
uh grant was also a brilliant strategist
and he saw
the uh problem that they were facing in
the danger
he saw exactly what lee and longstreet
saw
and so grant had uh general ord
of the army of the james send out his
cavalry and some of his infantry
and basically the northern and southern
troops
met at the bridge
and it was a war or a battle to the
death
because the union knew that they had to
keep the bridge open
the confederates knew that they had to
get across and burn the bridge
before the rest of the army of the
potomac got there and so
it was a really terrible sad
uh battle and so uh general ord
uh sent his second in command
his chief of staff which was brigadier
general thomas
reed and reed took his troops
there uh to fight um
against uh the southern troops under
brigadier general
thomas rosser and colonel thomas munford
and so like i said it was a race they
got there and they started to fight
and um reed and uh the other
uh general uh or colonel i'm sorry that
was
fighting on the side of the northern
troops
they literally gave their lives and
um they they were both killed
and um the um
the the second in command was a man
named washburn
and so washburn uh was killed and
reed was killed and uh at the same time
um one of the confederate generals who
was over the cavalry
was mortally wounded as he fired at
general reed
and there's a possibility that they shot
and killed each other
they don't know that for sure but
reed was shooting towards during
and deer or deering and deering was
shooting towards reed
we know that deering killed reed but
deer
deering was also shot and eventually
died
and deering was the last confederate
general to die in the civil war
at the battle of highbridge so the
confederates
won the battle and they took the entire
union brigade all the cavalry that
survived all the infantry that survived
everyone either was killed or became a
prisoner
and so the lee took the army of northern
virginia across
the uh the bridge the footbridge
and they were thrilled when they got to
farmville on the other side
because there was food in some train
cars there
well right after they got there
the union forces approached
um and so while
they were distributing the food the word
got to general lee that the union troops
were approaching the bridge
and so lee said stop eating and they
closed up the um
they closed up the train cars and we
sent them to the next station
which was appomattox station
so the train moved back to the west
towards
appomattox station and so
um the the confederates
turned and set fire to the bridge so
that the union could not get across
but because of the sacrifice of those
union forces it gave time
for the union army to catch up and so
while
a couple of the spans of the high bridge
collapsed
the lower bridge was a much harder wood
and it was the confederates were having
a hard time setting the bridge on fire
and the union army got there they shot
and scared them off
and the union army took blankets and
canteens and they dipped them in the
water
and with the wet blankets they put the
fire out
and so they were able to keep the lower
bridge
from burning which allowed the union
army to cross
and stay right on the tail of the army
of
northern virginia so there were two more
days or about a day and a half
more of of um
the army of northern virginia running
towards
the west and then um
cavalry the cavalry of the united states
got out in front of them
at appomattox station and a person
that's very famous from history general
george custer was the one who captured
the food
and the trains there in appomattox and
they
uncoupled the food from the uh
from the train and then they destroyed
the train so that the food could not
go anywhere and um
right and then uh sheridan came with his
cavalry
and came around the front of the
army of northern virginia at the same
time general ord
and the army of the james marched
through the night
they were exhausted but they knew that
they were close to bagging
their enemy so they marched through the
night
yeah and what happened yeah at first
light uh general lee said to general
gordon
uh we have cavalry in front of us we've
got the army of potomac behind us
we've got the appomattox river to the
north of us and there's
uh you know the we're having a hard time
because there's an approaching army down
to the south
see if you can break through the cavalry
so that we can keep moving towards
lynchburg and so
gordon came up and started fighting the
cavalry that was
unhorsed at that point and he was
starting to push him back
because he had infantry which is much
stronger than cavalry
and they pushed him to the crest of this
hill and they felt like
we might be having a breakthrough you
know and they got hopeful
but then when they hit the crest of the
hill they looked over the side
and there were scores hundreds and
thousands of blue-coated
union army troops from the army of the
james
that were emerging from the woods and
spreading out all across their front
and they were surrounded and there was
no hope
and so uh general gordon immediately as
soon as he saw that
his instincts told him retreat because
he knew if they kept fighting they would
be annihilated
and they went back to general lee and he
said
we could do no more and that was what
led to
the surrender that later that day there
at
appomattox courthouse in uh uh
wilmer mclean's house and um
so the battle of highbridge was
a critical battle that helped to lead to
the
surrender two days later at appomattox
wow wow what a dramatic
story oh my gosh the way
like just i mean it really it's you know
it's very easy to
demonize the confederacy and to be like
oh you know these
you know people that were fighting for
slavery but like when you look at
just how devoted both sides are to fight
that tooth and nail man there must be
some like
you know there must be like
psychological studies out there like
how what will cause someone to fight so
hard
you know that like in this in these
moments that they'll
you know burn their own you know their
own bridges and they'll do
everything like that they can
you know especially when they when
someone's cornered like that that's
really
i mean it's so incredible to hear
stories like this of people
you know just holding on and in such
desperation
it's
uh as he wrapped up his memoirs he said
um
you know i i give full credit to
these people for how valiantly they
fought and so there was always great
respect uh there and remember
that in the beginning of the war the
original
uh army chief was winfield scott who was
the hero of the war of 18
or i'm sorry the war of uh the mexican
war
and winfield scott said to lincoln the
very best soldier in the army
is robert e lee and so lincoln went to
robert e lee well he sent an emissary
uh blair his his uh republican
friend uh over to talk to lee
to offer lee the to be the top general
in the entire union army at the outbreak
of the civil war
and lee thought about it uh but he came
back and said
he turned it down and he said uh i
cannot lift my sword against my native
country because you got to remember that
they saw
the states as separate countries like
in europe that came together in
a union for the purpose of mutual
defense
against the empires of
england spain and france and russia
and also for mutual trade but
they saw themselves as basically
separate countries and so when
when lee said i cannot raise my sword
against my native state or my native
country
that was his mindset and uh
there's a an author um shelby foote
who was featured prominently in the ken
burns civil war series
that you probably remember well and um
said that before the civil war
it was said the united states are and
nobody was self-conscious about it at
all
after the war it was always said and it
is said today
the united states is and he said that's
what the civil war did
it made us an is
wow oh my goodness so
man that is so interesting because for
us now it's like
it's like where it's just totally
ingrained
you know that together
we're unified you know and like there's
a subsect
you know that these that the states are
smaller part of the unified hole
and that's what the civil war answered
that was an unanswered question
from the the constitutional convention
and uh the civil war basically answered
that uh
that question of can states leave
once they've come into the union and uh
the wharf basically said nope
once you're in you're in forever
because basically they signed the
document of the constitution of the
united states
coming together as a union and they said
that we are in pursuit of a
more perfect union were ever in pursuit
of a more perfect union
and so lincoln argued that once they
signed that document that was it
whereas the confederacy said no states
rights we have every right
you know we we entered voluntarily into
this confederation this union
and we have every right to leave which
the ironic thing is
later in the war there were some
confederate states
that were thinking about seceding from
the confederacy because they didn't like
how it was being run by
jefferson davis so that is a snake that
will come back to bite you
right wow
we've got about eight minutes left oh
that is so
compelling we have about eight minutes
left
and uh you had one more question
yeah i did i wanted to talk about um you
know i see you've got the books behind
you
uh yeah and that artwork is stellar i
don't want to take up too much
more time but i i have to comment on it
it really is incredible
well it gives you know i had seen this
for years
it gives it gives the uh the
image of forward motion so it goes well
with the title
of forward yeah oh yeah absolutely well
and
you know one of the questions i wanted
to ask was you know
i you talk about we being the um
you know what the top soldier and you
know grant was also brilliant you know
we've talked about
you and me apparently about his you know
prowess as a general as a strategist and
you know
i like i've i've had like a wondering of
like man if the roles that were reversed
and you gave
lee the resources of the union
and grant the determination and the
dogginess of the southern
you know confederacy you know how would
it have turned out then that would have
been very interesting i
you know that's a maybe we'll just i'll
chew on that
the question well you know a lot of
people have had that very question
what would have happened if lee would
have been in command
uh and you know interestingly enough and
i'm just going to take an aside on that
because it's a thought-provoking
question
in fact why don't we because we're
running out of time we'll come back to
the question from this book next week
but um after
grant left the white house as president
he toured the
world for two years and he met
at one point you know he met all he had
dinner with
queen victoria and they met the pope in
rome
and they went to jerusalem and you know
all these you know the sultan of turkey
gave them
or of the ottoman empire but in turkey
gave him two purebred arabian horses
that grant shipped back to the united
states
and those horses started being studded
out and so
some of our thoroughbed horses today
are direct descendants from that gift
from the sultan
oh my god but one of them well
grant loved his horses he absolutely did
and he built a beautiful a beautiful
horse
stable for his horses out in st louis
which if you ever go out to whitehaven
which is now a national park the grant
home in st louis uh they
they converted that horse stable into
the museum
and it is a beautiful beautiful i mean
it's amazing because the building
is the same building on the outside it's
just been you know
renovated and painted and and it shows
how much grant loved his horses because
in some ways
that barn was nicer than the house
but um but going back to what you
but what you had said earlier about
um lee being in charge
when grant met with the chancellor of
germany a man named otto von
bismarck bismarck said
uh it was so sad that your country had
to
uh fight this civil war and grant
immediately responded and said but it
had to happen
and bismarck said yeah you had to
restore the union just like germany had
to fight to preserve its
uh integrity and grant said not only
fight the union and this is so important
he said but also destroy slavery
and bismarck was a little bit taken back
by that
and he said what do you mean and grant
said slavery was a cancer on
our country and as soon as
slavery fired upon the nation
he said i knew that it had to be
destroyed
not just put down not just contained
which is what abraham lincoln uh ran
on people think that lincoln was a a
fire-breathing
abolitionist he was not lincoln was a
pragmatic
politician he did not run in 1860
saying that he wanted to abolish slavery
he said he wanted to contain it
but just containing slavery to the slave
holders
of the south that was enough for them to
go to war
to break free from the union because
they felt like
we don't want anything to curtail our
desire for slavery
and if you study what their plans were
they wanted an
empire of slavery that would stretch
through mexico
into central america and south america
slave
homes oh my gosh it would have been a
cartel imagine what would have happened
in the 20th century
if they would have won it's hard to even
imagine
you know you're talking about what if we
did this what if the
confederacy won and they achieved their
goal of
race-based slavery
these same roots and the same seeds of
these ideas
were adopted by adolf hitler
it's the same thing that's what people
people need to be honest
with themselves and recognize that as
grant said this was a cancer
and it had to be done away with there
are people who said oh
it slavery was dying and it was about to
to be
uh you know done away with according to
the historians who've done in-depth
research including
our friend uh who wrote the book about
gettysburg what's the last name
gelts um oh uh galzo
galzo girls alan galzo alan gelzo
did in-depth research on this and he is
a
professor at the university of
gettysburg he's one of the world's
leading authorities on the civil war and
he said
all of the research that he did showed
that uh in 1860
slavery was going strong with no signs
of weakening
at all in fact the throughout the
confederacy
they were starting to talk about how can
we
uh start adopting industrialization like
the north has
and start putting slaves into factories
out west they talked about how can we
put slaves into mines
in the mountains they had no people who
say that slavery was about to die
i i just don't see the evidence for that
and so when you go back to what grant
was saying to otto von bismarck
grant said that we had to destroy
slavery we could not
build a piece and bismarck said well
it's so sad that the
war went on for so long and there were
so many people killed
and grant said yes but perhaps it was
providence
yeah he said that if the war would have
ended earlier slavery
might have been left intact and he said
it would have
risen up again and we would have had
another war
to fight but because the war
stretched out as long as it did uh
the views of the whole nation turned
uh and they turned when abraham lincoln
realized that he couldn't
fight just uh with the cause
of preserving the union it was not
enough
both from a moral standpoint from
a um you know a vision casting
standpoint
but also from the standpoint of in order
to defeat
the slave or slavery in order to defeat
the confederacy the north
had to uh take slavery out as something
that
contributed to the confederate war
effort
see that's the thing that people forget
is that in the north
you had to have all kinds of people
cooking
and taking care of the horses and
bringing in supplies and all these
things
and up until the time when the
emancipation proclamation was
was given on december 31st when it went
into effect
january 1st 1863 all of that was done by
white people
whereas in the south they had thousands
of black slaves
in the army doing all these things so
that the white
soldiers could fight so if you come
against and free the slaves
for one uh lincoln knew that the slaves
would
you know try to get away to to obtain
their freedom
for another it starts to uh
erode the strength of the south
in that uh it starts to erode that
slave free labor base and that
then you know did that but it also gave
a second cause now there were still
plenty of racist people in the north
in the army of the potomac who didn't
want to fight to free the slaves
but there were also many many people in
the north
who said wow uh it's not only
taking care of the union and keeping the
union preserved but we're also
going to fight to free the slaves
and so there was a song that was sung
among the northern troops
called john brown's body
and this song was basically saying what
john
brown started in freeing the slaves
because of the emancipation proclamation
we as the army of of the you know
north we are an army of liberation
and so they sang john brown's body is a
mormon in the grave
glory glory hallelujah our
our chart his soul is marching on and
basically
they sang that song as a way to keep
their
you know their strength up and to give
them another reason to fight
yeah the other thing that happened is
that the emancipation proclamation
allowed northern black soldiers or
you know african americans to join the
army and to fight
and abraham lincoln said we've been
waiting on this
and you know uh frederick douglass had
been pushing
and pushing lincoln you've got all these
black people
who are dying to fight because they know
better than anybody else that this war
is about freeing the slaves
let them fight and when they let them
fight they became
a tremendous asset for the north and for
the northern troops
and so that's why grant said uh
he said to bismarck i think it was
providential that it went as long as it
did
so that slavery could be done away with
once and for all
and that may be why one of the reasons
why
uh lee was not um
chosen if you're going to be speaking
providentially
which uh lincoln certainly spoke
providentially
in his second inaugural address and he
said that this war
uh if if it takes all of the blood shed
by the lash
uh of the slavers over 400 or 250 years
to be equaled by bloodshed by
canons and guns then he quoted isaiah
and he said then it must be said today
the way it was said
2 000 years ago that the judgments of
the lord
are true and righteous altogether
lincoln said basically that slavery or
the war
uh was god's punishment for slavery and
that
uh all that bloodshed was there to
revenge the blood that was shed
by the slaves and all of the
toil that was uh given for free had to
be made up
by the lives of those who gave their
lives in the civil war
it's a profound statement from the
president and it was echoed
by general grant and president grant
wow right wow
oh my goodness i mean can't quite argue
with it
you know like these people that you know
you know
saying that it was for you know states
rights and stuff and things like that
like
you can't you know you can't argue
when both presidents that were you know
active in the civil war obviously grant
wasn't
present during the civil war but both
who had hand in it speak so boldly
and so directly um there are still
thousands who do argue against it
but i i think that if you go into these
questions open minded with an open mind
and a fair uh heart and not just from
how you were raised uh and actually look
at these
issues yeah um it's hard to argue
against
these things i think so well aaron we're
past our time
uh any final thoughts uh as we wrap up
so glad that you've been with us tonight
yeah no this was uh incredible i love
hearing these the details the amount of
you know knowledge that you've
accrued gives such a bright vivid image
when it's retold
in in all of these different assets that
are our elements that come together
to really paint a picture of just how
important this
is and like so timely i'm blown away by
it and so like
this is excellent i am so excited to see
more of
uh what comes out of this show and the
different uh new pieces of knowledge
that
can help in people as we like you know
look
you know history a lot of people say
history is a mirror you know and you
look
you know you look back to check within
you know and to check your own heart and
to remember what
where we've come from and the lessons
that we can learn and i think there are
certainly
you know it sounds like hundreds of
lessons
from just how vast this is like so many
things can be taken in and can be
applied to our own lives our own
you know uh our own modern problems that
we're looking at as a country to make
sure that we are continually
striving towards making a more perfect
union
that's exactly right well thank you for
being with us aaron it's been a pleasure
and uh i just want to remind people that
if you are interested in
purchasing forward you can get it at
grantforwardbook.com
and then the biography which is
right there is called victor and you can
get that at grantvictorbook.com
you can get them at amazon or wherever
books are sold go to your local
bookstore and if they don't have them on
the shelf
ask them to put them on the shelf so
that other people will know about them
if you have questions that you would
like for us to answer here
on stories and miss go to my website
which is vonbuzzic.com just my name
right there with no space
von busick busick.com
v-o-n-b-u-s-e-c-k.com
and send your question we'd be luck we'd
be happy to answer
uh these questions i wanted to point out
uh marlene banks said that when she was
a child
they jumped rope as they sang the song
john brown's body which i think is
amazing just absolutely amazing all the
generations later but it still has the
power because
it really said this is you know one of
the things
not the only thing but one of the
important things that
uh the civil war was fought over so
that's just wonderful
so once again thank you for joining us
for stories and miss we're here every
thursday
at 7 00 pm eastern u.s time
and we hope you will join us again next
week so for aaron von busick john c
farrell who couldn't be here tonight i'm
craig von busick have a wonderful
evening morning
or afternoon take care
